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windowledge


Joined
Mar 2013



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:09 AM GMT
[Post4739831]

right. so, this thread is probably going to cause a bit of irritation, annoyance, and bafflement, but i'm genuinely not trying to make any trouble here. i fully expect the answer to the question posed in the title of this thread to be a resounding and somewhat indignant "no." so, y'know, have at me if you'd like. i'm going into this thread expecting to get yelled at a bit.

but, like, i really have to ask. see... okay. back in, like, 2004, i bought myself a copy of rhino's reissue of the first ramones album (i was like 14 and my parents always caught me when i tried to download music, okay?). in the liner notes to said reissue (i was a big reader of liner notes in those days), johnny was quoted as saying something along the lines of "i wanted to play pure white rock 'n' roll" with "no blues influence." that quote irked me back then, and it still irks me now. i mean, okay: obviously, there's nothing wrong with not liking blues if that's not your taste. there's nothing racist about not being influenced by the blues in your guitar playing. but the quote bothered me. it bothered me because, for one thing, it seemed a little strange that johnny went out of his way to point out his lack of a blues influence. more irksome than that was the phrase "pure white rock 'n' roll." like, maybe johnny was going on about his lack of a blues influence because he was proud of his rejecting the 70s blues rock sound (which was admittedly pretty horrid), but why on earth did he have to make a point of emphasizing the whiteness of his style? to say that you're not influenced by the blues is one thing, but to consciously racialize your playing style is another.

and indeed, the ramones, for all their supposed love for 50s and 60s rock 'n' roll, have always struck me as a bit... well, whitewashed. i mean, it's always seemed a bit odd to me that their music consistently and (seemingly) consciously sidestepped everything that was black about the rock 'n' roll of old. listening to the ramones' take on the stuff, you wouldn't know that rock 'n' roll was an outgrowth of r&b- there's plenty of surf rock, bubblegum, and glam in their music, but they play as if they had no idea that little richard, chuck berry, and bo diddley existed. their music is a straight line from the beach boys through the new york dolls with lotsa guitar feedback thrown in, and with all of the blues, r&b, and soul plucked out. which strikes me as odd because to me, it seems impossible to love rock 'n' roll without loving black music, yet the ramones somehow managed to pull it off.

just seems odd is all.

Last edited by windowledge on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:18 AM GMT

windowledge


Joined
Mar 2013



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:09 AM GMT
[Post4739833]

fuck me i can't believe i actually made this thread but there's no going back now

michael_james


Joined
Sep 2008



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:12 AM GMT
[Post4739836]

i guess i wouldnt be too surprised. new york was pretty shitty and racially divided through the 80s. even in the punk and early hardcore scenes there was racism.

spencerrich


Joined
Jan 2009



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:15 AM GMT
[Post4739839]

Johnny, as a a Reaganite anti-welfare Republican probably was a little rascist. Joey, as a Ronettes-loving peace-nik Jew, probably was not.

Last edited by spencerrich on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:15 AM GMT

ome


Joined
May 2010



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:16 AM GMT
[Post4739841]

wasn't johnny like really, really right wing

still the ramones is great

dustbites


Joined
Sep 2012



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:21 AM GMT
[Post4739845]

johnny was known as the absurdly right-wing one though, right? didnt he make them change one of their songs because it cussed reagen?

soundwise i dont think they were any more white than say, pink floyd, or indeed any other prog group that preceded them

dustbites


Joined
Sep 2012



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:21 AM GMT
[Post4739846]

oh yeah i just said what the two posters before me said. cool

never_knows_best


Joined
Mar 2008



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:28 AM GMT
[Post4739855]

spencerrich said:
Johnny, as a a Reaganite anti-welfare Republican probably was a little rascist. Joey, as a Ronettes-loving peace-nik Jew, probably was not.

Kaernk


Joined
Oct 2010



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:30 AM GMT
[Post4739858]

Dunno if he was a racist or not, but white people playing "white" music seems perfectly appropriate to me. After all it's nigh impossible for any relatively bourgeois white person to take on blues, soul, funk, reggae, or any non-western "ethnic" music in general without coming off as either embarrassingly disingenuous at best or a post-colonialist cultural appropriator (The Cultural Appropriator - the perfect supervillain name! I'm totes copyrighting that shit) at worst (at least that's the stance most here would agree with). Playing the music that you understand, that's true to your life, upbringing, culture, and passions, that's how you do it, I guess, maybe, whatever...

michael_james


Joined
Sep 2008



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:32 AM GMT
[Post4739860]

Kaernk said:
Dunno if he was a racist or not, but white people playing "white" music seems perfectly appropriate to me. After all it's nigh impossible for any relatively bourgeois white person to take on blues, soul, funk, reggae, or any non-western "ethnic" music in general without coming off as either embarrassingly disingenuous at best or a post-colonialist cultural appropriator (The Cultural Appropriator - the perfect supervillain name! I'm totes copyrighting that shit) at worst (at least that's the stance most here would agree with). Playing the music that you understand, that's true to your life, upbringing, culture, and passions, that's how you do it, I guess, maybe, whatever...


or you can play whatever you want because its fun.

PhantomOTO


Joined
Jan 2007



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:34 AM GMT
[Post4739864]

Look up Lester Bangs' "White Noise" if you haven't already. It does a good idea of capturing the racism of elements of the '70s New York punk scene. The idea of playing "white" music wasn't uncommon.

Last edited by PhantomOTO on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:35 AM GMT

Bob_Gnarley


Joined
Nov 2007



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:35 AM GMT
[Post4739866]

it's possible that comment wasn't based in any actual disdain for black culture or whatever. I think he meant they wanted to play rock music devoid of any blues influence, and he worded it poorly. He's never come across as an especially articulate guy in any interviews I've heard.

spencerrich


Joined
Jan 2009



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:35 AM GMT
[Post4739868]

To be fair, reading Johnny's bio made me like him just a little bit. I'm sure he liked some black music and the 70's were filled with lots of horrible blues-rock.

Mindblower


Joined
Apr 2009



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:44 AM GMT
[Post4739879]

As you mentioned, with this quote Johnny was clearly distancing his music from the 60s/early 70s rock bands who almost all had blues influences. And although he was notoriously right-wing I'm not sure if it was specifically meant as a racist statement, he was more the type of person who was anti-everything. Johnny was the opposite, very liberal.
The Ramones' rock 'n' roll may be very white-ish but they all were huge fans of the Phil Spector girl-groups of whom most members were black. And Dee Dee had of course his hiphop period, he went as far as recording a complete hiphop album as Dee Dee King.

Last edited by Mindblower on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:54 AM GMT

HectorG


Joined
Feb 2003



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:45 AM GMT
[Post4739880]

michael_james said:
Kaernk said:
Dunno if he was a racist or not, but white people playing "white" music seems perfectly appropriate to me. After all it's nigh impossible for any relatively bourgeois white person to take on blues, soul, funk, reggae, or any non-western "ethnic" music in general without coming off as either embarrassingly disingenuous at best or a post-colonialist cultural appropriator (The Cultural Appropriator - the perfect supervillain name! I'm totes copyrighting that shit) at worst (at least that's the stance most here would agree with). Playing the music that you understand, that's true to your life, upbringing, culture, and passions, that's how you do it, I guess, maybe, whatever...


or you can play whatever you want because its fun.

Seriously.  It's one thing to claim that some white rock musicians with a Western upbringing in the 60s-70s could get away with what was essentially plagiarism.  But this sort of "keep to your own kind" mentality just makes me angry, knowing that it's still so prevalent among people who should know better.

Last edited by HectorG on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:46 AM GMT

klob


Joined
Jan 2006



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:45 AM GMT
[Post4739881]

windowledge said:
johnny was quoted as saying something along the lines of "i wanted to play pure white rock 'n' roll" with "no blues influence."


no idea about whether he was racist, but another way to read that is primarily as mocking the way classic rock singers and guitarist appropriated the blues legends and style.  seems more in keeping with their approach.

Bob_Gnarley


Joined
Nov 2007



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:54 AM GMT
[Post4739883]

Mindblower said:
And Dee Dee had of course his hiphop period, he went as far as recording a complete hiphop album as Dee Dee King.


on a related note, in that End of the Century documentary (which is one of the great rock-docs of all time, imo), "I'm not a negro" was one of the reasons he gave for the fact that his rap career didn't work out.

Last edited by Bob_Gnarley on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 12:55 AM GMT

Chaosmonger


Joined
Jun 2008



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 01:06 AM GMT
[Post4739899]

Didn't ELP say something about playing pure European rock music? Who said punk and prog don't mix.

JasonHernandez


Joined
Nov 2006



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 02:16 AM GMT
[Post4739977]

Back then, one of the marks of a "serious" rock musician was that they were deeply respectful of their "blues" roots. Think Eric Clapton and Alvin Lee and a bunch of other guys who don't mean shit on RYM today (but who were icons back then).  

I think that Johnny Ramone's remarks should be taken in that context rather than judged by the standards of today.

After all, one of the things that made punk rock punk rock was that the bands often weren't respectful of the roots of rock 'n' roll. Or, if they were, they embraced the trashiest parts of it (see the Ramones' various covers of some of the most frivolous hits of the 60s, such as "Do You Wanna Dance?")

Last edited by JasonHernandez on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 02:20 AM GMT

Dum_Dum_Boy


Joined
Jun 2007



Friday Jul 12, 2013, 02:24 AM GMT
[Post4739984]

I'm gonna have to go with the "somewhat poorly worded way of saying "not beholden to the blues"" interpretation.  Richard Hell said something about the Sex Pistols being "The definition of white rock n roll" in a way that was probably meant the same sort of way.  If anything, it was robably meant to be respectful, as in separating Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley and other originators from popularizers like Elvis or something.  Obviously, Rock n Roll's history is more complex than being a black or white thing but I'm on painkillers right now for wisdom teeth removal and can;t think of a way to end this properly.

Last edited by Dum_Dum_Boy on Friday Jul 12, 2013, 02:26 AM GMT

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